<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.2.2" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Opinions and Anecdotal Evidence</title>
	<link>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66</link>
	<description>An American Meteorological Society Project</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.2</generator>

	<item>
		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-34142</link>
		<author>Mark</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jun 2010 10:15:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-34142</guid>
		<description>"It’s unbelievable that, compared with the cyclical nature of our heat source, people can believe that variations in trace gasses are a major factor in the planet’s temperature."

It's unbelievable that you would assert this without measuring the variation of this cyclical nature of our heat source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar-cycle-data.png

which is less than 1 part in 1366.

However, IR trapping gasses that don't fall out in a few days, CO2 is the top contender and constitute over 95% of the total volume of such gasses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas

And CO2 has increased 40%, hardly insignificant.

Dai, *Iron* is a trace element. What happens when you have zero iron (which is at less than 380ppm in your body)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_deficiency_%28medicine%29

But I guess you don't want skepticism or maths or checking the process. All you want is dogma and AGW to be false.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It’s unbelievable that, compared with the cyclical nature of our heat source, people can believe that variations in trace gasses are a major factor in the planet’s temperature.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s unbelievable that you would assert this without measuring the variation of this cyclical nature of our heat source:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar-cycle-data.png" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/en.wikipedia.org');">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar-cycle-data.png</a></p>
<p>which is less than 1 part in 1366.</p>
<p>However, IR trapping gasses that don&#8217;t fall out in a few days, CO2 is the top contender and constitute over 95% of the total volume of such gasses:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/en.wikipedia.org');">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas</a></p>
<p>And CO2 has increased 40%, hardly insignificant.</p>
<p>Dai, *Iron* is a trace element. What happens when you have zero iron (which is at less than 380ppm in your body)?</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_deficiency_%28medicine%29" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/en.wikipedia.org');">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_deficiency_%28medicine%29</a></p>
<p>But I guess you don&#8217;t want skepticism or maths or checking the process. All you want is dogma and AGW to be false.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-23735</link>
		<author>David B. Benson</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-23735</guid>
		<description>Well, it is possible to learn the physics.  Or at least read about the actual physics in "The Discovery of Global Warming" by Spencer Weart:

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.html

Review of above:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E7DF153DF936A35753C1A9659C8B63</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it is possible to learn the physics.  Or at least read about the actual physics in &#8220;The Discovery of Global Warming&#8221; by Spencer Weart:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.aip.org');">http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.html</a></p>
<p>Review of above:</p>
<p><a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E7DF153DF936A35753C1A9659C8B63" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/query.nytimes.com');">http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E7DF153DF936A35753C1A9659C8B63</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fran Manns, Ph.D., P.Geo. (Ontario)</title>
		<link>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-23194</link>
		<author>Fran Manns, Ph.D., P.Geo. (Ontario)</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-23194</guid>
		<description>I have debated but Suzuki backed out and sent a science fiction writer in his place.  Gore obviously will not debate anyone.  His investigations in the Senate as you should know are always bully tactics.  He is totally irresponsible.  Barbara Boxer uses the same tactics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have debated but Suzuki backed out and sent a science fiction writer in his place.  Gore obviously will not debate anyone.  His investigations in the Senate as you should know are always bully tactics.  He is totally irresponsible.  Barbara Boxer uses the same tactics.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fran Manns, Ph.D., P.Geo. (Ontario)</title>
		<link>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-23193</link>
		<author>Fran Manns, Ph.D., P.Geo. (Ontario)</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-23193</guid>
		<description>Bumper stickers for a large bumper.
The danger to the planet is an optical illusion. CO2  is de minimis. Prosperity, however, is being seriously threatened by NGO lobby groups with tunnel vision.  It is not heavy industry at fault. It is cynical politicians fishing for constituencies using politically correct red herring for bait.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Hoffer, 1951  – “The True Believer – Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements” 
P.11
“When hopes and dreams are loose in the streets, it is well for the timid to lock doors , shutter windows and lie low until the wrath has passed.  For there is often a monstrous incongruity between  the hopes, however noble and tender,  and the actions that follows them.  It is as if ivied maidens and garlanded youths were to herald the four horsemen of the apocalypse. 
And p.12	
 “People who see their lives as irremediably spoiled cannot find a worth-while purpose in self-advancement...Their innermost craving is for a new life  –  a rebirth – or failing this, a chance to acquire new elements of pride, confidence, hope, a sense of purpose and worth by an identification with a holy cause.  An active mass movement offers them opportunities for both...” [ Is this Mr. Gore?]
and P. 13 
 “ It is true that in the early adherents of a mass movement there are also adventurers who join in the hope that that the movement will give a spin to their wheel of fortune and whirl them to fame and power.”
And 

Eric Hoffer, 1979 – “Before the Sabbath”
p. 7 
“ I am curious about Pechorin, a Russian intellectual of the mid-nineteenth century who wrote a poem on “How sweet it is to hate one’s native land and eagerly await its annihilation.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bumper stickers for a large bumper.<br />
The danger to the planet is an optical illusion. CO2  is de minimis. Prosperity, however, is being seriously threatened by NGO lobby groups with tunnel vision.  It is not heavy industry at fault. It is cynical politicians fishing for constituencies using politically correct red herring for bait.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />
Eric Hoffer, 1951  – “The True Believer – Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements”<br />
P.11<br />
“When hopes and dreams are loose in the streets, it is well for the timid to lock doors , shutter windows and lie low until the wrath has passed.  For there is often a monstrous incongruity between  the hopes, however noble and tender,  and the actions that follows them.  It is as if ivied maidens and garlanded youths were to herald the four horsemen of the apocalypse.<br />
And p.12<br />
 “People who see their lives as irremediably spoiled cannot find a worth-while purpose in self-advancement&#8230;Their innermost craving is for a new life  –  a rebirth – or failing this, a chance to acquire new elements of pride, confidence, hope, a sense of purpose and worth by an identification with a holy cause.  An active mass movement offers them opportunities for both&#8230;” [ Is this Mr. Gore?]<br />
and P. 13<br />
 “ It is true that in the early adherents of a mass movement there are also adventurers who join in the hope that that the movement will give a spin to their wheel of fortune and whirl them to fame and power.”<br />
And </p>
<p>Eric Hoffer, 1979 – “Before the Sabbath”<br />
p. 7<br />
“ I am curious about Pechorin, a Russian intellectual of the mid-nineteenth century who wrote a poem on “How sweet it is to hate one’s native land and eagerly await its annihilation.”</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-23192</link>
		<author>Dave</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:39:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-23192</guid>
		<description>It's unbelievable that, compared with the cyclical nature of our heat source, people can believe that variations in trace gasses are a major factor in the planet's temperature.

When the sun warms so do we.....check the intensity and (shorter) durations of the last 3 solar cycles.
It will probably take the accumulation of more emperical data reinforcing the current cooling trend to scrape the greenies of the anchor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s unbelievable that, compared with the cyclical nature of our heat source, people can believe that variations in trace gasses are a major factor in the planet&#8217;s temperature.</p>
<p>When the sun warms so do we&#8230;..check the intensity and (shorter) durations of the last 3 solar cycles.<br />
It will probably take the accumulation of more emperical data reinforcing the current cooling trend to scrape the greenies of the anchor.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Higgins</title>
		<link>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-23180</link>
		<author>Paul Higgins</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-23180</guid>
		<description>It's painful to see this much scientific non-sense. 

If you're interested in learning about climate science then the place to go is IPCC's most recent assessment of the science. If you've been duped into believing that the IPCC isn't a credible assessment of what we know, then try the U.S. (and other) National Academies, and scientific societies. If you're looking to debate climate science you should do that either: 1) within the expert scientific community itself (i.e. at meetings or in the relevant journals), or 2) on the websites that like to focus on climate science, most notably Realclimate.org. 

Quickly:

The cosmic ray hypothesis is discussed (and found wanting) in some detail on realclimate.org. It is also covered well in the IPCC's Working Group I report.

Water vapor is a feedback. Warmer air temperatures (say, because of human caused greenhouse gas emissions) lead to more water vapor in the atmosphere which leads to further warming. This basic and well known by scientists but seems to confuse many non-scientists.

The CO2 temperature lag is another canard you almost have to try to fall for. The ice-age/interglacial climate changes were initiated by changes in the earth's orbit. In response, the carbon cycle responded as a positive feedback (warming triggers the release of greenhouse gases which leads to more warming, or cooling triggers the uptake and storage of greenhouse gases which leads to further cooling). Again, you can find out more about this at realclimate.org or the IPCC (and probably just about any credible source). 

CO2 fertilization is far more complicated than you've been lead to believe. Some plants may benefit from higher CO2 concentrations, but it depends on the particular species (it can also be expected to alter existing relationships among species). Plants grown at higher CO2 concentration also can have lower nutritional quality (as measured by the ratio of carbon to nitrogen in their tissues). Overall, I think this is not good news.

You seem to confuse climate science with right/left politics. It seems to me that it shouldn’t be hard to accept what the relevant expert scientific community discovers through research (and extensive vetting, and replication, etc.) with whatever preferences you have for the role of government in society. Indeed, politicians on both sides of the political spectrum accept the IPCC assessments. You deceive yourself, and others, when you reject climate science as something from &lt;del datetime="2009-01-28T23:17:00+00:00"&gt;“...all knowing environmental groups on the left”&lt;/del&gt; "the all-knowing environmental lobby groups" and "...the red herring used by the left to unwind our economy".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s painful to see this much scientific non-sense. </p>
<p>If you&#8217;re interested in learning about climate science then the place to go is IPCC&#8217;s most recent assessment of the science. If you&#8217;ve been duped into believing that the IPCC isn&#8217;t a credible assessment of what we know, then try the U.S. (and other) National Academies, and scientific societies. If you&#8217;re looking to debate climate science you should do that either: 1) within the expert scientific community itself (i.e. at meetings or in the relevant journals), or 2) on the websites that like to focus on climate science, most notably Realclimate.org. </p>
<p>Quickly:</p>
<p>The cosmic ray hypothesis is discussed (and found wanting) in some detail on realclimate.org. It is also covered well in the IPCC&#8217;s Working Group I report.</p>
<p>Water vapor is a feedback. Warmer air temperatures (say, because of human caused greenhouse gas emissions) lead to more water vapor in the atmosphere which leads to further warming. This basic and well known by scientists but seems to confuse many non-scientists.</p>
<p>The CO2 temperature lag is another canard you almost have to try to fall for. The ice-age/interglacial climate changes were initiated by changes in the earth&#8217;s orbit. In response, the carbon cycle responded as a positive feedback (warming triggers the release of greenhouse gases which leads to more warming, or cooling triggers the uptake and storage of greenhouse gases which leads to further cooling). Again, you can find out more about this at realclimate.org or the IPCC (and probably just about any credible source). </p>
<p>CO2 fertilization is far more complicated than you&#8217;ve been lead to believe. Some plants may benefit from higher CO2 concentrations, but it depends on the particular species (it can also be expected to alter existing relationships among species). Plants grown at higher CO2 concentration also can have lower nutritional quality (as measured by the ratio of carbon to nitrogen in their tissues). Overall, I think this is not good news.</p>
<p>You seem to confuse climate science with right/left politics. It seems to me that it shouldn’t be hard to accept what the relevant expert scientific community discovers through research (and extensive vetting, and replication, etc.) with whatever preferences you have for the role of government in society. Indeed, politicians on both sides of the political spectrum accept the IPCC assessments. You deceive yourself, and others, when you reject climate science as something from <del datetime="2009-01-28T23:17:00+00:00">“&#8230;all knowing environmental groups on the left”</del> &#8220;the all-knowing environmental lobby groups&#8221; and &#8220;&#8230;the red herring used by the left to unwind our economy&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fran Manns, Ph.D., P.Geo. (Ontario)</title>
		<link>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-23170</link>
		<author>Fran Manns, Ph.D., P.Geo. (Ontario)</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.ClimatePolicy.org/?p=66#comment-23170</guid>
		<description>Keeping in mind that windmills are hazardous to birds, be wary of the unintended consequences of believing and contributing to the all-knowing environmental lobby groups.  
Climate and economy are being linked.  Climate is a multiple loop, multiple input, complex system.  The facts and the hypotheses do not support CO2 as a serious 'pollutant'. In fact it is plant fertilizer and seriously important to all life on the planet.  It is the red herring used by the left to unwind our economy.  That makes the science relevant.
Water vapour (0.4% overall by volume in air, but 1 – 4 % near the surface) is the most effective green house gas followed by methane (0.0001745%).  The third ranking greenhouse gas is CO2 (0.0383%), and it does not correlate well with global warming or cooling either; in fact, CO2 in the atmosphere trails warming which is clear natural evidence for its well-studied inverse solubility in water:  CO2 dissolves in cold water and bubbles out of warm water. The equilibrium in seawater is very high; making seawater a great 'sink'; CO2 is 34 times more soluble in water than air is soluble in water.
Correlation is not causation to be sure. The causation is being studied, however, and while the radiation from the sun varies only in the fourth decimal place, the magnetism is awesome. 
“Using a box of air in a Copenhagen lab, physicists traced the growth of clusters of molecules of the kind that build cloud condensation nuclei. These are specks of sulphuric acid on which cloud droplets form. High-energy particles driven through the laboratory ceiling by exploded stars far away in the Galaxy - the cosmic rays - liberate electrons in the air, which help the molecular clusters to form much faster than climate scientists have modeled in the atmosphere. That may explain the link between cosmic rays, cloudiness and climate change.” 
As I understand it, the hypothesis of the Danish National Space Center goes as follows:
Quiet sun → reduced magnetic and thermal flux = reduced solar wind → geomagnetic shield drops → galactic cosmic ray flux → more low-level clouds and more snow → more albedo effect (more heat reflected) → colder climate
Active sun → enhanced magnetic and thermal flux = solar wind → geomagnetic shield response → less low-level clouds → less albedo (less heat reflected) → warmer climate
That is how the bulk of climate change might work, coupled with (modulated by) sunspot peak frequency there are cycles of global warming and cooling like waves in the ocean. When the waves are closely spaced, the planets warm; when the waves are spaced farther apart, the planets cool.
The ultimate cause of the solar magnetic cycle may be cyclicity in the Sun-Jupiter centre of gravity.  We await more on that. 
Although the post 60s warming period appears to be over, it has allowed the principal green house gas, water vapour, to kick in with more humidity, clouds, rain and snow depending on where you live to provide the negative feedback that scientists use to explain the existence of complex life on Earth for 550 million years.  Ancient sedimentary rocks and paleontological evidence indicate the planet has had abundant liquid water over the entire span.  The planet heats and cools naturally and our gasses are the thermostat.  
Check the web site of the Danish National Space Center.
   http://www.space.dtu.dk/English/Research/Research_divisions/Sun_Climate/Experiments_SC/SKY.aspx</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keeping in mind that windmills are hazardous to birds, be wary of the unintended consequences of believing and contributing to the all-knowing environmental lobby groups.<br />
Climate and economy are being linked.  Climate is a multiple loop, multiple input, complex system.  The facts and the hypotheses do not support CO2 as a serious &#8216;pollutant&#8217;. In fact it is plant fertilizer and seriously important to all life on the planet.  It is the red herring used by the left to unwind our economy.  That makes the science relevant.<br />
Water vapour (0.4% overall by volume in air, but 1 – 4 % near the surface) is the most effective green house gas followed by methane (0.0001745%).  The third ranking greenhouse gas is CO2 (0.0383%), and it does not correlate well with global warming or cooling either; in fact, CO2 in the atmosphere trails warming which is clear natural evidence for its well-studied inverse solubility in water:  CO2 dissolves in cold water and bubbles out of warm water. The equilibrium in seawater is very high; making seawater a great &#8217;sink&#8217;; CO2 is 34 times more soluble in water than air is soluble in water.<br />
Correlation is not causation to be sure. The causation is being studied, however, and while the radiation from the sun varies only in the fourth decimal place, the magnetism is awesome.<br />
“Using a box of air in a Copenhagen lab, physicists traced the growth of clusters of molecules of the kind that build cloud condensation nuclei. These are specks of sulphuric acid on which cloud droplets form. High-energy particles driven through the laboratory ceiling by exploded stars far away in the Galaxy - the cosmic rays - liberate electrons in the air, which help the molecular clusters to form much faster than climate scientists have modeled in the atmosphere. That may explain the link between cosmic rays, cloudiness and climate change.”<br />
As I understand it, the hypothesis of the Danish National Space Center goes as follows:<br />
Quiet sun → reduced magnetic and thermal flux = reduced solar wind → geomagnetic shield drops → galactic cosmic ray flux → more low-level clouds and more snow → more albedo effect (more heat reflected) → colder climate<br />
Active sun → enhanced magnetic and thermal flux = solar wind → geomagnetic shield response → less low-level clouds → less albedo (less heat reflected) → warmer climate<br />
That is how the bulk of climate change might work, coupled with (modulated by) sunspot peak frequency there are cycles of global warming and cooling like waves in the ocean. When the waves are closely spaced, the planets warm; when the waves are spaced farther apart, the planets cool.<br />
The ultimate cause of the solar magnetic cycle may be cyclicity in the Sun-Jupiter centre of gravity.  We await more on that.<br />
Although the post 60s warming period appears to be over, it has allowed the principal green house gas, water vapour, to kick in with more humidity, clouds, rain and snow depending on where you live to provide the negative feedback that scientists use to explain the existence of complex life on Earth for 550 million years.  Ancient sedimentary rocks and paleontological evidence indicate the planet has had abundant liquid water over the entire span.  The planet heats and cools naturally and our gasses are the thermostat.<br />
Check the web site of the Danish National Space Center.<br />
   <a href="http://www.space.dtu.dk/English/Research/Research_divisions/Sun_Climate/Experiments_SC/SKY.aspx" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.space.dtu.dk');">http://www.space.dtu.dk/English/Research/Research_divisions/Sun_Climate/Experiments_SC/SKY.aspx</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
